But yes, the whole Heisenberg thingy is so counter-intuitive. Even Heisenberg had trouble with Heisenberg. As he grew older he went through a number of phases ( of a philosophical nature ) trying to make his own sense of it.
Cheers, Mike.
Doesn't that then push it towards one of those purely hypothetical things kinda like 'I think I am therefore I am'? You said earlier "Quite annoyingly though : if you assume the virtuals are actually there then the answers come out right with respect to measurement*, and to a very high degree of agreement." Lots of people can 'prove' things if you let them 'add in' stuff to the equation. Before you go into some technical explanation let me start out by saying my eyes too glazed over, but probably MUCH earlier than most others peoples did.
It is a worry. My eyes glaze too. I have to squint at least to get it at least half right. Heisenberg originally said you should only model what you can measure - full marks there - but as that evolved then it implied things that one can't directly measure : but they leave a footprint none-the-less.
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Heisenberg originally said you should only model what you can measure - full marks there - but as that evolved then it implied things that one can't directly measure : but they leave a footprint none-the-less.
Cheers, Mike.
Yup that would bother me too, if you can't measure it completely how do you know you are getting it right in your calculations? For example 'I saw a lightening bolt one time, it must have been 10 trillion volts of electricity!' How on Earth can anyone prove me wrong? Without being there to see and measure it it can be 'subjectively proved' to be impossible, but not 'proven' thru any kind of measurements as there were none taken. Or even Carl Sagan said we are all made up of 'Stardust' now prove which Star I came from. It can't be done as that Star exploded LONG before I came about, the 'stuff' then traveled for who knows how long and made 'me'. I am a 'footprint' of that 'Stardust', but there is no way anyone can ever tell WHICH Star, or even combination of Stars I came from. They can tell me what the Stars were made of, but not WHICH Star.
Heisenberg originally said you should only model what you can measure - full marks there - but as that evolved then it implied things that one can't directly measure : but they leave a footprint none-the-less.
Cheers, Mike.
Yup that would bother me too, if you can't measure it completely how do you know you are getting it right in your calculations? For example 'I saw a lightening bolt one time, it must have been 10 trillion volts of electricity!' How on Earth can anyone prove me wrong? Without being there to see and measure it it can be 'subjectively proved' to be impossible, but not 'proven' thru any kind of measurements as there were none taken. Or even Carl Sagan said we are all made up of 'Stardust' now prove which Star I came from. It can't be done as that Star exploded LONG before I came about, the 'stuff' then traveled for who knows how long and made 'me'. I am a 'footprint' of that 'Stardust', but there is no way anyone can ever tell WHICH Star, or even combination of Stars I came from. They can tell me what the Stars were made of, but not WHICH Star.
I was lured onto startrek.com today (I usually ignore the emails from it), where I found an intriguing headline about being one step closer to the transporter. After reading the article, I have to say no, not so much. Someone has built a system where you put an object in and the system scans one layer of it and sends the data to a 3D printer, which recreates it, then the scanner grinds off a layer so it can scan the next layer. Somehow, I don't think that will work with a living being, let alone a consciousness.
David
Miserable old git
Patiently waiting for the asteroid with my name on it.
*clasp chest* ... ooh ... [/panic] got locked out of einstein a bit ... was almost as bad as getting locked out of seti, but fortunately only lasted as long as needing to remember my password :) Erm... *wave vague hello at everyone whilst poking head back out of thread* not sure what I've done... but out there it's saying I've read all the threads and I know I haven't... also... there were a few... errors made trying to rectify some over enthusiastic mousing on my button array in boinc manager but... *attempt to distract audience whilst brushing entire fiasco under carpet* that was there... this is here... *distant faraway look* so probably... unconnected.
Hello everyone :) Yes... *call after rapidly disappearing dustclouds* it IS me. :) Well... THAT was a hairy fortnight that was *frown* um... so let's not go there again *beam brightly* ever!
Oh look! *peer down thread* ... you were right David! :) TL DID know who were looking for. Well done TL :)
Of course... does mean... *start tearing up anniet notes made more than two weeks ago in response to...
"
Quote:
and I slipped an important word into a comment about something else
"*
Y-e-e-e-s... Bye quadrophenia research *rip* ... bye applesauce research *rip* ... bye Leather Goddesses of Phobos *rip* ... bye Papua New Guinea *rip* ... bye prophylactics *odd squeaking noise* *BOING*
Oh... *blink at sudden new nose draping* it IS good to be back though :)
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
Sigh of relief. Annie is back & in her usual mental state to boot. Woo ... woo ... whoopity golf clap .... :-) :-)
[ I was going to say she currently may be affected by the pain killing medication. But then we knew her before she got on those ... so much for that theory! ]
So Armageddon may come now, bring on the Horses Of The Apocalypse*, for all the Planets Are Aligned with Annie Ensconced in The Firmament ( or possibly the not-so firmament, and for that matter what's all that sconcing about anyway ... )
She really is an alien plant you know. :-)
@David : It's called a fax/photocopier. They did that a while ago. The real question is .... do you delete the original ? :-) :-)
@Mikey : I can say for sure we are made from high quality Good Stars ! Certainly none of that black hole rubbish .....
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) For an extreme take on the risks of information transfer try A Is For Andromeda .... :-)
* In a local paddock we have Apocalypse Pig. He is enormous and he's a stud pig ( pity the sows ). He is dimensionally somewhat larger than a 44 gallon drum. I honestly thought there was a physics limit for land mammal density. Some scaling law, gravity 'n stuff. Perhaps not. Maybe that's why my car's steering goes wobbly every time I drive past ..... :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
Good morning everyone. :-)
Good morning everyone. :-)
TimeLord04
Have TARDIS, will travel...
Come along K-9!
Join SETI Refugees
Pushing the thread count
Pushing the thread count along and saying good morning to everyone too!
tick tock
tick tock
Phil
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
RE: tick tock Yup just
Yup just waiting here too.
RE: RE: But yes, the
It is a worry. My eyes glaze too. I have to squint at least to get it at least half right. Heisenberg originally said you should only model what you can measure - full marks there - but as that evolved then it implied things that one can't directly measure : but they leave a footprint none-the-less.
Cheers, Mike.
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal
RE: Heisenberg originally
Yup that would bother me too, if you can't measure it completely how do you know you are getting it right in your calculations? For example 'I saw a lightening bolt one time, it must have been 10 trillion volts of electricity!' How on Earth can anyone prove me wrong? Without being there to see and measure it it can be 'subjectively proved' to be impossible, but not 'proven' thru any kind of measurements as there were none taken. Or even Carl Sagan said we are all made up of 'Stardust' now prove which Star I came from. It can't be done as that Star exploded LONG before I came about, the 'stuff' then traveled for who knows how long and made 'me'. I am a 'footprint' of that 'Stardust', but there is no way anyone can ever tell WHICH Star, or even combination of Stars I came from. They can tell me what the Stars were made of, but not WHICH Star.
(Door opens) (Head peeks
(Door opens)
(Head peeks around corner)
"Tick tock?"
(Sound of door slamming)
Phil
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
RE: RE: Heisenberg
I was lured onto startrek.com today (I usually ignore the emails from it), where I found an intriguing headline about being one step closer to the transporter. After reading the article, I have to say no, not so much. Someone has built a system where you put an object in and the system scans one layer of it and sends the data to a 3D printer, which recreates it, then the scanner grinds off a layer so it can scan the next layer. Somehow, I don't think that will work with a living being, let alone a consciousness.
David
Miserable old git
Patiently waiting for the asteroid with my name on it.
*clasp chest* ... ooh ...
*clasp chest* ... ooh ... [/panic] got locked out of einstein a bit ... was almost as bad as getting locked out of seti, but fortunately only lasted as long as needing to remember my password :) Erm... *wave vague hello at everyone whilst poking head back out of thread* not sure what I've done... but out there it's saying I've read all the threads and I know I haven't... also... there were a few... errors made trying to rectify some over enthusiastic mousing on my button array in boinc manager but... *attempt to distract audience whilst brushing entire fiasco under carpet* that was there... this is here... *distant faraway look* so probably... unconnected.
Hello everyone :) Yes... *call after rapidly disappearing dustclouds* it IS me. :) Well... THAT was a hairy fortnight that was *frown* um... so let's not go there again *beam brightly* ever!
Oh look! *peer down thread* ... you were right David! :) TL DID know who were looking for. Well done TL :)
Of course... does mean... *start tearing up anniet notes made more than two weeks ago in response to...
"
"*
Y-e-e-e-s... Bye quadrophenia research *rip* ... bye applesauce research *rip* ... bye Leather Goddesses of Phobos *rip* ... bye Papua New Guinea *rip* ... bye prophylactics *odd squeaking noise* *BOING*
Oh... *blink at sudden new nose draping* it IS good to be back though :)
Please wait here. Further instructions could pile up at any time. Thank you.
Sigh of relief. Annie is back
Sigh of relief. Annie is back & in her usual mental state to boot. Woo ... woo ... whoopity golf clap .... :-) :-)
[ I was going to say she currently may be affected by the pain killing medication. But then we knew her before she got on those ... so much for that theory! ]
So Armageddon may come now, bring on the Horses Of The Apocalypse*, for all the Planets Are Aligned with Annie Ensconced in The Firmament ( or possibly the not-so firmament, and for that matter what's all that sconcing about anyway ... )
She really is an alien plant you know. :-)
@David : It's called a fax/photocopier. They did that a while ago. The real question is .... do you delete the original ? :-) :-)
@Mikey : I can say for sure we are made from high quality Good Stars ! Certainly none of that black hole rubbish .....
Cheers, Mike.
( edit ) For an extreme take on the risks of information transfer try A Is For Andromeda .... :-)
* In a local paddock we have Apocalypse Pig. He is enormous and he's a stud pig ( pity the sows ). He is dimensionally somewhat larger than a 44 gallon drum. I honestly thought there was a physics limit for land mammal density. Some scaling law, gravity 'n stuff. Perhaps not. Maybe that's why my car's steering goes wobbly every time I drive past ..... :-)
I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter ...
... and my other CPU is a Ryzen 5950X :-) Blaise Pascal